Public Safety Employees Reap Benefits of DROP
Baltimore County made average cash payments of more than $376,000 to 40 police, fire and correctional employees who retired since June.
Pdfs
UPDATED(12:30 p.m.)—Baltimore County paid 40 public safety employees an average of $376,000 since June under a program intended to keep experienced employees on the payroll longer.
Two retired police department majors top the list with over $600,000 each in cash payments. A third retiring major took home more than $560,000 upon retiring on November 1.
In all, the county paid out nearly $15.1 million in lump sum cash payments under a program called the Deferred Retirement Option Program—DROP as it is more commonly known. That figure includes more than $2 million in accrued leave and vacation time, according to information released to Patch under a Public Information Act request.
Don Mohler, a county spokesman, said that while the figures might initially draw attention they represent millions of dollars in annual savings that has kept the county’s pension system sound.
But deferred retirement plans, similar to the ones offered by the county, have been controversial in Philadelphia and San Diego.
‘It’s been paid for.’
The names of the individual retirees who were paid over the last six months are not immediately known. By law, the county can only provide lists of employees who took retirement and a list of retirement payments made by job title and department. (You can see the lists attached to this article.)
Mike Day, president of the Baltimore County Professional Fire Fighters, acknowledged that the public might find some of the payments “eye-popping” but said the payments were deserved.
“Is it newsworthy? OK, I’ll give you that,” said Day, who heads the union that represents about 1,000 active fire fighters and paramedics. “Is it costly (to taxpayers)? No, it’s been paid for. You have to realize that the ‘D’ in DROP is ‘deferred.’ We held onto people who served the county longer.”
Cole Weston, president of the Fraternal Order of Police Lodge 4, said the plan is just one option open to the members of the union he heads.
“There are a lot of people who are eligible but they’re also eligible to retire normally,” said Weston, who heads a union representing nearly 1,850 active members. “They don’t have to take that option. You can have two people with 30 years on the job. One will take the three-year DROP and the other won’t take one at all.”
Mass Exodus
A significant number of the employees electing to retire are senior police and fire department employees who left since June as a result of an early retirement incentive passed by the County Council in October.
This is on top of what has been increased interest among rank-and-file members of the police and fire departments in taking retirement—and in some cases, also getting the six-figure payouts.
Earlier this year, police Chief Jim Johnson warned the County Council of an impending exodus of experienced officers beginning this fall and stretching into next year.
Weston, the union president, said the increased interest in retirement stems from the maturing of the departments.
“We have a senior group,” said Weston, the police union president. “There are more people on the job now with with 35, 36, 37, 38, 39 and 40 years of service than we did eight years ago when we bargained this.”
Both Weston and Day such changes in staffing are cyclical. A similar thing happened in the 1990s when the county provided incentives to employees to leave as the county faced shrinking revenues.
Weston recalled Feb. 1, 1992 as the day when 100 police officers took retirement.
“There’s no doubt that experienced people are beneficial to an organization—especially law enforcement,” Weston said. “But there comes a time when people need to retire and others need to step up."
Weston said he doesn’t see “a mass exodus” in the next 12 months even though he acknowledges more police officers are talking about possibly taking advantage of the DROP.
Day, of the fire fighters union, agreed and but said if it does happen, the fire department won’t be adversely affected.
“We are our own farm system,” Day said. “We’ve known this was coming. It’s happening. The lights will still be on, the fires will still be put out, we’ll still cut people out of cars and we’ll still take grandmom and grandpa to the hospital when they have a heart attack.
Adopting a Controversial Program
Adam Summers, a policy analyst at the Reason Foundation, a Los Angeles-based libertarian think tank, said the benefits of such deferred retirement programs are "fishy."
"They're making an assumption that someone is going to retire rather than continue to work," said Summers, who co-authored a 2005 report on deferred retirement programs.
Summers said actual savings can often be difficult to prove without in-depth analysis. The potential for employees to game the system often outweighs the presumed benefits, he said.
Deferred retirement options plans made their first appearance 25 years ago in Baton Rouge. The idea was to provide an incentive to police and fire fighters to stay on beyond their minimum retirement requirements.
Over the years, a number of jurisdictions have adopted the idea—some to a great deal of controversy, according to Summers.
A 2010 report by the Philadelphia City Paper found that more than 6,600 city employees received $725 million in lump sum payments. Another 2,100 employees were eligible for nearly $340 million more.
An independent analysis by that paper found that the cost of the program was higher than city officials had acknowledged.
In San Diego, critics called the program a "plush pension perk that is unsustainable," according to VoiceofSanDiego.org.
The news website reported in 2009 that budget shortfalls and pension loses forced the city to reduce benefits.
Two DROPS
Baltimore County has two deferred retirement programs.
The first, negotiated by police and fire unions in 2001, is known as a “back DROP” and is less common. The program does not require eligible employees to predetermine their retirement dates and commit to a period of employment beyond that date. During additional employment, the county re-invests the employee’s pension payments and then pays out a lump sum with interest when the employee officially leaves.
The plan, negotiated by police, fire and other public safety unions in 2001, was designed to provide an incentive for employees who were nearing retirement to continue to work for the county.
Police officers and fire fighters hired before 2007 and have 27 and 32 years of service respectively are eligible to receive a lump sum cash payout under the program.
In electing to participate in DROP and collect the lump sum payments, those employees will also receive less in pension benefits in retirement than if they had not participated in DROP.
"A police or firefighter who is contemplating retirement may choose to have his average final compensation frozen at a level three to five years prior to retirement and receive a lump sum payout at the time of retirement," according to a statement released by the county. "That lump sum includes the accumulation of the annual pension he or she would have received during the three to five year time period as well as his or her contributions to the pension system during that time and the interest accrued over the three to five years."
General county employees are in the more common plan—sometimes called a “forward DROP.”
Under both plans, only employees hired before July 1, 2007 are eligible for the lump sum cash payments. Some general government employees will be able to apply to cash out under the plan next July.
An Eye on Solvency
Four years ago, the county made changes to the retirement system in an effort to make the program financially stable and lower the cost of post-employment health care.
“That’s a major driver of costs,” said Mohler, adding that the goal was to save money by encouraging general county employees to stay longer so they were closer to being eligible for Medicare, thus lowering the county’s insurance costs.
“Everything that was done then was done with an eye toward the fiscal solvency of the system,” said Mohler.
The percentage to which the nearly $1.8 billion system is funded has declined in the last decade. Currently, the pension system is funded at the 80 percent level—down from 111 percent in 2000, according to a county auditor’s note from budget hearings earlier this year.
The ratio of active employees to retirees has also declined in the last two decades. In 1993, that ratio was nearly 2 to 1. This year that ratio is less than 1.5 to 1.
At the same time, the unfunded costs of the retirement system as a percentage of annual payroll has increased over the last year—a warning sign that the system is becoming weaker, according to the auditor’s note.
Savings remain to be seen
It may not be clear for decades what the savings will be for the county as a result of the DROP programs
Overall, Mohler said changes made in 2007 coupled with the general government employee DROP have resulted in more than $19 million in savings to the system but that’s before the first employee has drawn a check.
The cost of the plan for general government employees cost the county about $1.9 million. Officials say those costs were offset by $4.6 million in savings generated by changes to other retirement benefits.
Costs for the public safety plan have increased from $5 million in direct contributions from the county in 2004 to $7.5 million in this year.
The county’s contribution to the plan is determined by an annual actuarial review, Mohler said, adding that the benefit of the plan exceeds the costs.
“I look at the big picture,” said Mohler. “You can’t look at any one thing in isolation. The quality of our police and fire fighters is exceptional. If we could get them to work for the county longer then that’s a benefit. I thin you have to weigh all of that when you look at how much this cost the taxpayers.”
Buzz Beeler
8:37 pm on Thursday, December 1, 2011
Just to set the record straight, I took the drop also. I would say in addition that I did not want to leave my job that I had done all of my adult life. The physiological impact on an unplanned retirement is one of the most stressful incidents a person will go through.
This article is a thorough and accurate story on how these programs are structured and give the public an insight into the operation of our local government.
Brayn Sears is extremely thorough in his work as the premier political reporter in Baltimore. An article like this requires some serious research an forethought. This is some serious taxpayer money being spent.
I did not chose to retire and would rather still be working. To some people work and one's career are more important than money.
I also think that many of those that will be leaving feel the same way. I know of two people who's lives were devastated by this situation.
I believe that in life, this is what is referred to as one's VOCATION!
Robert Armstrong
11:13 pm on Thursday, December 1, 2011
"Seniority and senility are close companions."
Lorna D. Rudnikas
6:16 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
What a dorky thing to say honey child!!
Buzz Beeler
1:13 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
I find it rather strange that one who belittles himself with juvenile remarks is not smart enough to understand their own actions. Rather than realize that, they continue to make the same mistakes like talking to them selves. It is not necessary to use quotation marks when you are the one making the statement, unless you are quoting the voices in your cardboard head.
I guess the math and the amount of dollar signs are beyond your years.
William
1:42 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
Well I find the article lacking. Further the article and explanation of the program in the Baltimore Sun are lacking. It makes it look like an employee can chose the DROP and leave with a lump sum. What the article fails to point out is when an employee takes the DROP their yearly pension is reduced. The higher the number of years of DROP the higher the hit tothe annual pension. Now these high ranking officers who retired had on 37 plus year. They basically were paying the County to come to work. How? Simple the high ranking official is paying money into the system vs what he or she could collect when retired. In most cases due to the number of years of service the person would earn more retire than working and then comes along this incentive plan that the current County Council approved adding 5.25% more to the pension. This 5.25% was never planned for. This incentive is wrong for the higher ups it should have been offered to the rank and file members who are the actually worker bees.
Buzz Beeler
1:11 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
William, the first thing I do when responding to a negative comment regarding the functions of the county in a particular story is to check how long you have been an active participant of this site.
Generally speaking those who take the stance you have --- both articles are lacking -- this is usually your first comment, and guess what -- it is! How about that.
Everything in this story is front and center. How much thorough do you want the story to be? Here is your quote: " ... it look like (sic) an employee can chose the DROP and leave with a lump sum.". You answered your own question. The answer is YES THEY CAN CHOOSE!
To make matters worse, an additional perk as per the council bill regarding the retirement incentive is icing on the already multi-layered cake.
You are correct that staying home makes more sense on retirement than to work for fractions of your pay scale unless the is something at the end of the rainbow, or in this case DROP!
You show me one person, including me, who says this story is lacking when your are talking about making those involved almost instant millionaires?
As one of those "rank and file members" my payout was less than half of the current figures.
I don't think you will get much support from the general public or the private sector on these payouts.
Bart
3:39 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Buzz, have you just made yourself the arbitor of whose comments are worthy? So far as I have experienced, everyone's comments are welcomed, right or wrong, new or experienced, and whether or not you agree. This may be very clear to you, but there are some who would like some more explanation. They certainly have that right to state their feelings.
Steve Shawson
7:27 am on Friday, December 2, 2011
William, I agree with you in that the article is lacking. The DROP option for public safety retirees has been in existence for quite some time in the Public Safety arena.
It is very clear that the county is intent upon thinning out the upper ranks (higher paid workers) and not touching the "worker bees". Let's face it, there are a lot less in the command staff than the rank and file. To offer this to them, it would totally decimate the rank and file and there would be no way that they could fill the holes quickly enough. My buddy (whom is a 28-year sergeant on BCOPD and works patrol; and upset that he didn't get the option to take this incentive) told me that the police academy takes about 8-months to complete. He also told me that if they offered this to them, there would probably be several hundred officers and supervisors that would take it, and there is no way that they could handle this many vacancies. One other thing that he said...All this incentive did was speed up the retirement of several commanders by a few months. The ones that left were leaving in the spring anyway...now they get a few more dollars in their pocket to leave early.
Anyway William, I do agree with you that if you are going to offer it to one group, than all should have received it. It's only fair. But, I think the reality is the department is not prepared to handle the number of vacancies giving it to the rank and file would cause.
Buzz Beeler
1:23 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Steve, the DROP is available to many members of the county. I was a PFC and took a four year DROP. I would have preferred to stay working but that was not my choice.
Generally speaking the pay scale is usually predictable and based on a quid-pro-quo comparison to other surrounding agencies.
I think regardless of the formula of the DROP, and you will see more on this, there is the public perception that during these economic times, the figures are --- out there --- to say the least.
Freddy
1:32 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
On the patch over the last few weeks there have been several reports on County workers pensions and drop programs. These people have placed their lives on the line for the taxpayers of Baltimore County and if they are getting something for that, so be it they deserve it. What funny most of the complainers on here will pay hundreds of dollars to see a sports player hitting, throwing or catching a ball for millions of dollars but complain when a public servant that protected them getting a comfortable retirement.
K Blue
1:53 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
An incentive offered to quality people in public safety (police or fire) to keep them on the job for a longer period of time when they could otherwise retire and which preserves stability and quality of services poses no concerns to me. There is no indication that any of the people who elected to participate are not quality people, and while these figures may appear high, you hit the nail on the head: these public safety employees do or did risk their lives for the greater good. That being said, I appreciate Patch's coverage of these plans because they provide me with a greater understanding of where my taxdollars are going and the limitations these plans may pose on local government due to prior agreements.
Bart
3:00 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Freddy, how right your are. Even without the issue of dangers, etc., if these deals are part of the agreement they had when they started their employment, then they are totally free to collect. It was a part of their contract. It can't be changed midstream. Both parties - The County and the employee must stick to their contract. The employee has, now it's time for the County to do the same. And we, as taxpayers can complain all we want, but a contract is a contract. It's not up to an opinion call.
Buzz Beeler
1:41 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
What three college degrees do you have? The one's you bragged about but never listed.
From the link you posted: " ... to set off material that represents quoted or spoken language.".
The key word here is QUOTED!
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/quote
Who are you quoting? You mentioned "Dude, ...", is that who you are quoting or is that a relative?
Robert Armstrong
3:51 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
I ran your post through Babelfish 3 times and it still doesn't make any sense.
Buzz Beeler
3:57 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Then neither will the DROP.
Buzz Beeler
4:07 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Bart, I know that both inside the PD and the executives office there are people who's job it is to read Patch and neutralize any comments that may not be favorable to the administration.
Experience tells me to always check the source when a comment like that is posted. A lot of work by two outstanding reporters went into this story so when someone bemoans both articles as "lacking" I look at the source. I find it rather strange that many of these types are usually the first comment by said user.
You place far to much trust in the county government. I would be interested in what stake you have in this?
As to the issues of county government the most recent U.S. Justice Department investigation into the ADA cases would give any reasonable person cause for concern. There are millions at stake there also.
The county makes its own deals like in PUD's just to mention one. Did you see Jim Smith on the bus to Fort Howard?
Bart
4:49 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
The stake I have in this is that I am a taxpayer in Baltimore County. You think the administration worries about what goes on here? That they worry about you? You seem to see conspiracies behind every light post. How do you sleep at night?
Jim Smith on the bus to Fort Howard? You get more obscure every day.
Robert Armstrong
4:27 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
But yet you took the DROP yourself? Other people took the DROP and received more money then you did. Oh Boo Hoo! You want some cheese with that whine?
William
4:33 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Buzz
First off I am not in the police or County Exec s censor squad. What I meant by lacking is the full explanation of the DROP was not giving and it is in County Code where everyone can see it. Again if someone takes the DROP they are reducing thier annual pension. The bigger the DROP option the bigger the annual reduction. Thus this is what I mean when I say lacking. Give us the correct and full story the first time. How is this someone nutrilizing the story?
Robert Armstrong
4:47 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Oh Noes! They have been outed! The Patch Neutralization office located deep underground in the bunker complex under 400 Washington Ave.
William
5:01 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Buzz check the facts Baltimore County Code sections 5-1-302. 5-1-303 and I 5-1-304. This is actually not a big deal and it actually saves the retirement system money the longer the retiree lives. When someone elects the DROP they are agreeing to accept a yearly pension reduction and after a period of time passes the system is actually paying the retiree less. This is what is meant by the story is lacking
Bart
6:11 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Oh, don't confuse Buzz with facts. It might burst his paranoid bubble, then who knows what just might come oozing out.
Robert Armstrong
6:10 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
He has problems grasping the "cost neutral" concept.
Buzz Beeler
10:01 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
William, you'll have to excuse me for being a little aggressive there.
The pension liabilities are creating huge impacts on local and state governments. You cannot justify making county employees instant millionaires. To put a more proper perspective on this issue here are some links that may shed some light on this matter. There are more follow up articles on the way. You may want to look at them also.
http://www.pensiontsunami.com/
http://californiawatch.org/dailyreport/states-pension-liability-tops-500-billion-stanford-study-finds-1641
http://montana.watchdog.org/2011/10/06/6394/
Now for Bart and Armstrong, you are both beginning to sound and act alike.
Bart you made no mention of the issues I brought up other than to respond that I engage in conspiracy theories. Name them! Everything I write is based on published articles and research. If you want to say something then take the time and do your homework rather than speak like Armstrong who talks to himself.
Now, I hardly think the U.S. Justice Department is taking that stance, but, like Armstrong you can never make a comment with any substantive fact.
Are you aware of the $500 million Fort Howard LLC that is taking place amidst the gathering clouds of suspicion. You do remember Yorkway don't you? Was that $22 million a theory?
You see the difference between you and I and your counterpart Armstrong is that I actually study the issues.
Bart
10:26 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
In this thread, Buzz, we are talking about the pensions; agreements that were made to these people when they signed on with the county. As lousy as they appear now, they are the county's responsibility. The fact that, as you say, some people are being made close to millionaires is really none of your business. This was a contractual agreement made many years ago, and it must be kept.
It is quite apparent to all that you are indeed aggravated that you didn't get a similar payout.
The links you provided told nothing but the huge pension responsibilities that are coming for California and Montana in a few years. So what? They're coming here, too. And the administration has done its best to soften the blow.
Your comments about the ADA and Fort Howard are just more blather, and have nothing to do with this discussion. We might not like those deals, either, but the ADA is going through the courts, and the outcome of Fort Howard remains to be seen.
And as to Armstrong talking to himself, how can that be? You continue to respond to him!
Buzz Beeler
10:08 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Lorna, where have you been? It seems that there are those that think this issue is the path to the end of the rainbow, but in reality is a burden that will bankrupt municipalities.
If on the one hand as RA states, it's "cost neutral" then why is the county so anxious to back away from such a employee perk that ...., never mind, he never has anything constructive to say anyway.
Steve Shawson
10:11 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Sorry for not jumping back into this....had to travel to the west coast for business.
Anyway, I'm not a cop or a county worker Buzz and I don't spy for the administration or the police department. I'm just a tax payer trying to get informed. When I said the story was lacking, I was referring to the story (and the one in the Sunpaper too) not fully explaining what DROP is and how it works. In fact, if it saves the county and the taxpayers money, I'm for it. I support what these men and women do, and I fully understand the danger that they put their lives in everyday. That goes for both the fire department and the police department. I grew up with 2-uncles that were city officers and I have the utmost respect for all public safety workers. Unlike a few of the bloggers here, I have had nothing but positive interaction with the county officers that I have been in contact with from the White Marsh area where I live and my kids go to school.
I guess my confusion with you Buzz is that you state that you took DROP, and now you are bemoaning it? Why? If it was okay for you, then why is it bad for the rest of the agency? I have read your posts about what happened to you and being forced to retire....That really sucked! But please, don't lose your objectivity here because of what they did to you. I think you and I had a tit for tat before about diminishing what these men and women have done in their careers, and how we should honor them!
Thanks for listening.
Buzz Beeler
10:36 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Steve, yes I took the drop because I was one of the first victims of the county's violations of the EEOC. I have spoken about that issue at great length. The county just lost a $225,000 judgement and about a legal tab of $500,000. There are 14 more cases lined up behind the Blake case. I have linked that issue many times.
Steve, look at the links I posted. These underfunded pension liabilities are bankrupting governments across the country, just as our now $15 trillion debt will destroy our finical stability.
If the program is a winner, why are they in such a rush to get out of it. In fact the rush is so fast Kamenetz offered another 9% incentive to incite those to leave. It was an offer they could not refuse.
The police department is in a state of crisis in leadership and has become of ploy of local politicians who made deals with the unions over a period of many years. We are seeing this play out in many jurisdictions around the country.
I put my life into that job and they took my soul and it was all about politics, the politics of fear, i.e. Fred Homan who Mr. Kamenetz eagerly reappointed.
Read Patch's story on the former county attorney who is now taking them on a variety of issues that could affect over 400 employees. You think there might be some $$ paid out on that one?
Lorna D. Rudnikas
10:16 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Well Buzz, i know much too little about DROP to share an opinion. Need to read up on it. Just stopped by and the "dorky" comment by Robert caught my eye. You know I could not resist just a little tiny response....
William
10:50 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Buzz yes there needs to be caution with the pension funds however don't send links about out of state funds send links about Baltimore County pension funds alone. I believe it is one of the best ran ones in the State not like the one in Baltimore City or the State system. So compare apples to apples. Again you missed the point the DROP saves money over the long run. As for millionaires none of the figures on DROP payouts exceed $600000 which is a long way from a million. The other money is for time owed the employee and that is not retirement money and I am sure you know that. Please tell all the facts not only the ones that look bad. Balance reporting is all I ask for. Oh did you read the County retirement code for DROP. See let all the facts be known
William
10:51 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Oh and Buzz the incentive was only about 5.25% not 9%. Please Buzz get the facts straight
Buzz Beeler
11:16 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
Thank you Lorna.
Bart do you take the time to read what you write or read related information on this subject? If you did then you would know -- THIS DOES NOT SAVE MONEY! If it did then why is Kamenetz trying to hasten the ending of it?
This quote is beyond me: "The links you provided told nothing but the huge pension responsibilities that are coming for California and Montana in a few years. So what?". What the heck do you think is going to happen here? It is impacting local governments across the country. Why do you think this nation if facing finical ruin if we don't get our $15 Trillion debt under control?
Do you bother to read or study anything? If everything is so peachy, how come this is a major issue facing the county?
http://soetalk.com/2011/08/15/4217/
How clueless are you? A $225,000 + $500,000 in legal bills plus the possibility of millions more in fines and verdicts and a federal investigation into the county is blather!
The county would love to hire you.
Buzz Beeler
11:38 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
William now let me get this straight. If it saves money then why are they doing away with it? What happens in other states facing the same issues will happen here. When one sees a storm headed their way, you think it might be a good idea to prepare for it.
Did you read the quote where Kamenetz told the Sun that the costs facing the county are outpacing the revenues being taken in.
I'll have to check on this, because it's been a while since I looked at the bond issues, but I think the county floated a bond in 87 to cover the increasing cost of funding the pension system. I'll have to check on that one. I also believe that if you total the cost of the bonds that have been floated over the years the county's liabilities are rather large.
Now here is a link closer to home and the credentials of those doing the study are as they say impeccable. As of yet I don't know of anyone who has published an article on the long term fiscal health of the county. The board of ed is not faring very well.
When I get a chance to talk with my professor mentor, he is very astute with these county fiscal matters.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cr_40.htm
I not quite sure but if you calculate the additional three years incentive based on their pension rates at those three years it works out to be about 3% a year.
Diane
11:57 pm on Friday, December 2, 2011
A DROP in the bucket.
Buzz Beeler
1:40 am on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Diane, millions of drops and looming on the horizon dark storm clouds.
Your comment was as they say a good line.
Buzz Beeler
1:59 am on Saturday, December 3, 2011
I know I am being naughty but I could not resist. You can flog me in the morning.
Some of Robert's friends appeared in this video with the "Who." I might bring a chuckle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18rGGv0i-_8&feature=related
Bart
8:43 am on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Cool. Love Pete Townsend.
Lorna D. Rudnikas
3:00 am on Saturday, December 3, 2011
OMG Lightening is going to strike you Buzz!!
Robert Armstrong
10:04 am on Saturday, December 3, 2011
ROTFLMAO "Professor mentor"
Who's that? Professor Higgins? Trying to take you out of Dumbdalk?
"Warsher"....."Washer" ....."Youse.....You" ......."Toolip.....Toilet"
Buzz Beeler
11:17 am on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Lorna, now you see the real picture. Robert can't stand when the shoe is on the other foot.
We know noting about this person. There is no one on this site who even knows of him. He loves to dish it out but like most bullies he can't take the heat.
The terms he uses like the one in the beginning of his sentence is on the level of a juvenile. Instead of proudly revealing where he lives and his life's accomplishments it's the same old response.
It boils down to disclosure which he can't afford to do because he has noting to disclose.
I mean after all who would not want to be affiliated with the "Who?" The resemblance was striking.
Robert Armstrong
11:30 am on Saturday, December 3, 2011
You already know where I live Bueller. You said your "informer" already told you.
Buzz Beeler
12:16 pm on Saturday, December 3, 2011
An address does not account for one's life work now does it. As they say actions speak louder than words. There is a song that goes something like this: "Words is all I have to say." I think it was by the Bee Gees.
You love to dish it out with childish rants but can never back up ONE SINGLE CLAIM, NEVER!
I always surprised why not one person on this site ever heard of you even after all the spew you let out there. I never understood why you would use that head to speak for you.
Aren't you proud enough as a person to use your real face? The only answer I can figure out is that you are not confident enough to deal with these issues.
You constantly accuse me of being a drat dodger but have never listed any public service you have done. Nothing! It's easy to throw rocks off a bridge because the escape rout is easy.
By the way I still have my draft card. Oh and another thing, you made the statement that police work was not dangerous and when I put the Bureau of Labor stats up and the rankings, I never did hear back from you.
Robert Armstrong
1:44 pm on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Because it gets tedious trying to correct your various lies and bogus conspiracy theories. Even when you are proven wrong time and time again you still go ahead and re post the lies. But in answer to your latest attempt at disinformation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTSn1bPzH6k&feature=player_embedded
Buck Harmon
2:11 pm on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Good video... thanks..
Bart
4:53 pm on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Thanks, a bit of truth added to the blather.
Buzz Beeler
10:34 pm on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Buck I don't think you are aware of what is going on here. Bart I put you at the same speed of Armstrong.
Do you think that one of you might want to check the dates of the study involved. On the Youtube piece the source was the NY Times and Bureau of Labor stats. The date of the study WAS IN 2009! Now remember that date.
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/20/the-most-dangerous-jobs-in-america/
If you open your eyes you would see the source of the Youtube study, WHICH WAS THE NY TIMES! It is shown at the beginning of the study. Now I know it's tough for Bart and Armstrong because neither of you ever bother to think about what you are doing except trying to play childish games and catch me in a mistake.
Now read carefully the link I posted, because it uses the same source WHICH IS THE BUREAU OF LABOR STATS.
The difference is the dates, they are a year apart and for Bart and Armstrong, ya think that might make a difference?
Armstrong, and Bart you are both out of your league and only embarass yourselves when playing these juvenile games. Blather, Bart!
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/26/us-jobs-dangerous-idUSTRE77O8CT20110826
Now the source I used was the same Bureau of Labor Stats, but THERE IS ONE DIFFERENCE, THE DATE! The study was done in 2010. That, for those who study their homework lessons, is a year later.
Buck Harmon
10:43 pm on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Thanks for providing source info... learning a lot from this site... now~ what to do with it?
Buzz Beeler
11:18 pm on Saturday, December 3, 2011
Buck, I don't mind taking shots, it goes with the territory. Bart and Armstrong for some reason seem fixated on finding flaws, errors, or anything that seems to empower themselves when they read my comments.
I make a ton of mistakes and will continue to error in many ways, it's just the childish rants that I hate to deal with. I thought we were all adults on this site.
You can always read any and all comments by clicking on the persons name and then comments in their profile section. I have never referred to any one on this site in a derogatorily manor or slurring one's name.
I never go on the offense unless it is to defend my self. In fact I even apologized to William when I was being a little crass with him.
I even admitted I was wrong in our comments on some recent police issues.
If I make a mistake fine I have no problem in admitting to them, but when people refer to my comments as "blather," "conspiracy theories" and the constant rants of Armstrong, then I will respond.
I
Robert Armstrong
8:55 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Reading is fundamental. Your BLS figures are skewed because of 2 incidents where multiple cops were killed. Take those away (or compare them with the last 10 years of data) and they fall to 14th on the list.
Save the "Police work is dangerous business" for your boyfriends at the gym.
K Blue
9:40 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Police work at any age and in any age is dangerous. Fatality statistics are not necessary to demonstrate this. If you dont think that police work is dangerous business, perhaps you should speak with the surviving relatives of the following: Officer Edward Kuznar (died while on traffic patrol when he was hit head-on by a driver who crossed the center line and plowed into his police car, killing both the officer and the driver); Officer Charles Huckeba (left a wife and young son when he was gunned down in July 1977 while attempting to talk a barricaded suicidal youth into surrendering); Corporal Samuel Snyder (a 30-year veteran killed while responding to a call for assistance from fellow officers and was shot in August by a deranged subject); Officer Robert W. Zimmerman (who was struck in traffic, critically injured and died nine days later as a result of his injuries); Sergeant Bruce Prothero (who was shot and killed during an armed robbery, a 12-year veteran, married and the father of 5 children); Officer John Stem (died in 2000 of complications of paraplegia caused by a line of duty gunshot wound he suffered in 1977); Sergeant Mark Parry (died in 2002 from injuries sustained in a motor vehicle accident while on routine patrol when a drunk driver struck his unmarked police car, married and the father of 3 children); Lieutenant Michael Howe (died in 2008 as a result of a massive stroke after being on the scene of a murder-suicide). And those are only the local fatalities.
Buzz Beeler
9:53 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Thank you K Blue. Robert I have said this to you many times as you became more and more childish in you crass and demeaning remarks. You are in over your head in these issues when you make statements like the one above and remarks like the following comment: " Even when you are proven wrong time and time again you still go ahead and re post the lies.".
In your above response you say -- "Reading is fundamental." Then -- and here is where I mean you are in way over your head: "Your BLS figures are skewed because of 2 incidents where multiple cops were killed."
How can my BLS figures be skewed when we are both using the same resource? Ya think the two incidents where multiple officers WERE KILLED, is a skewed statistic? How do you SKEW DEATH!
WE ARE BOTH USING THE SAME RESOURCE! Did you hear that?
What is also interesting is when I post a Youtube video about illegals burning a U.S. flag, the first thing you do is comment YOUTUBE IS NOT A RELIABLE SOURCE! You are the first to discredit Youtube because is does not support you agenda.
I have said you do not have the ability to debate because you refuse to grow up and act like an adult by continually using remarks as, -- Dude, Bunker, Buller, draft dodger -- just to mention a few. It's it like a child throwing a temper tantrum when someone points out your mistakes.
Buck Harmon
10:22 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
I'd love to figure out a way to meld defense and offence into solution, at the very least effort would be positive...
Robert Armstrong
10:58 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
That's 8 out of how many? It's actually only 7 because Prothero was killed off duty protecting Freddie Brown's money. Snyder spent his whole life driving around in his little Cushman from Wargo's bar in the morning to the Bel Loc Diner in the afternoon. I am surprised the guy didin't die from a heart attack first. He only weighed like 400 lbs.
Buzz Beeler
11:22 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Buck and K Blue, now you see what you're dealing with. Armstrong is an uneducated, rude, crass, no-body who continues to prove my assessment of his character, maturity level and intelligence.
I alluded below to what this kid is all about and his above comments just validated my point.
K Blue
11:30 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Holy Toledo, Robert! I dont care if it is 1 person. I stand by my opinion that police work is dangerous whether it results in a fatality or not. Why do you insist it is not?
Buzz Beeler
11:04 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Buck, some people take these issues personally. Mr. Armstrong will comment on any topic I do and attempt to find some mistake I may have made. He has never revealed anything about his life that might give him so sort of creditability. Instead he continues to reveal the maturity of young teenager who continues to make remarks like this: "Save the "Police work is dangerous business" for your boyfriends at the gym.". (sic)
His posting that Youtube video was related to a suicide on the east side of the county that was covered by Patch. I made the remark that in police work the dangers of the job are not always physical in nature. Those officers literally watched a man torch himself and burn to death. Those images will last a long time in the minds of those officers.
I have tried to persuade him that his remarks are at the very least demeaning and reflect on his character. When he fails to either research the issue or take the time to prof read his comments, if you point out some issues he immediately resorts to crude and crass remarks.
If I use Youtube as a source he immediately dismisses it as not a reliable and will turn around and use the exact same Youtube in an attempt to validate his comments.
I think he is just a kid who cannot stand it when someone reveals his flaws and therein lies the difference in the maturity levels.
Ben Kiev
11:32 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
The county could have forced all the members of the executive corps that retired to use up every last day of their C/L prior to retiring. They could also just take DROP away from the exec corps with the stroke of a pen. I wonder why they didn't do that if it was so costly for them otherwise.....
Buzz Beeler
11:35 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Ben I think it has to do with the current contract these men are working under. I don't think you can make changes during the current budget year without running the risk of a labor dispute that could wind up in court.
Robert Armstrong
11:36 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Because statistically it's not. When you look at on duty deaths most of them are caused by car accidents.
You want some Cheese with that whine Bunker?
K Blue
11:42 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
On duty deaths where? Locally, statewide or nationally? Are you in the insurance business?
Bart
11:41 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
In all honesty, although police work might not be the highest injury and death rate profession, the Officers are the only ones who voluntarily put themselves in harm's way. Injuries and deaths in other professions are totally as a result of accidents, while with the police, it is often as a result of intentional attacks against them. They are also exposed on a regular basis to the worst behavior by other people. They often have injuries that are not visible on the surface. It is indeed a stressful profession.
Buzz Beeler
11:53 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Good point, well stated.
Robert Armstrong
2:10 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
Not true.
Ben Kiev
11:49 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Unlike the FOP, the exec corps contract is not guaranteed. They can have their DROP taken away without negotiation. They can be forced to use up all of their C/L, giving them no payout upon retirement. They had started to do that. Many people in the exec corps were forced to use up their C/L on days they would not have otherwise have taken off. There would be no recourse for them. They wanted to get the big reorganization underway. Getting them out speeds up the process, and saves money, even with them taking their DROPS (which are much much larger than anyone in the FOP will ever receive). The newer hires already have a different pension system, a different health care cost chart, a different life insurance coverage, and no DROP. Who else are you looking to take away from?
Buzz Beeler
11:50 am on Sunday, December 4, 2011
So are some of the deaths of our soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. Ever hear of the term a car is a a 4,000 lb. weapon. More people die in car crashes than were killed in the Vietnam War. I'm sure of course you know better in your assessment of this fact.
Again, if driving a car is dangerous, the cops who drive them every day during their tour of duty are subject to those dangers.
Why not come up with a thousand other reasons that will skew the data to fit inside that cluttered cranium.
I suppose your quote of -- "statistically it's not.", is based on your claim of three college degrees that you claim to possess.
I still believe you some some other issues going on here. Even teenagers have more intelligence to realize how they are perceived.
Buzz Beeler
12:34 pm on Sunday, December 4, 2011
Ben, I would defer to on the contract side and the executive core is a different arena.
I might take exception to the money issue. After all is said and done the price tag could be $30 million.
Pension liabilities are forcing local and state governments into some serious financial issues, ones they cannot afford.
Robert Armstrong
2:08 pm on Sunday, December 4, 2011
LOL "Tour of Duty"
Almost 50% of all police deaths are automobile accidents.
Statistically speaking it's more dangerous to work as a clerk in a convenience store.
Buzz Beeler
8:16 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
Someone just called me and said FOX 45 Morning News just did a feature story on the county Drop Program and said that many of those involved will become millionaires and that the county has no idea how much this is going to cost them in the long run.
The question was posed to a UM Professor who said there is no way for them to calculate the cost in the long run. When confronted with the professor's information the county admitted they did not know the costs involved.
As soon as the story is up I'll post the link. I have said all along this is not cost effective and will negatively impact the county's budget and could cost $25 million or more depending on how many take the Drop.
Remember the FD is losing a ton of people and they too will be taking a drop. This story is far from being over.
I would suggest that those who hang out or work in convenience stores stay away from the Slurpees. It clouds the brain, stunts mental growth and causes grown men to act like children.
Robert Armstrong
10:06 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
Didn't you spend 39 years hanging out in convenience stores?
Buzz Beeler
10:53 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
No, I served my community and did my job. By the way what is your job, or what was your job or for that matter did you ever work?
How did you serve you community? Be specific with a link, photo or some other scanned document. If you were in the service there might be a photo such as the one below.
http://www.buzzbeeler.com/photo?func=detail&id=69
That would be one way to document you wild claims.
You see I find it rather strange that not one person ever heard of you, especially after all of your wild claims. I have said this before, there are some serious issues with your profile or lack there-off.
I have always believed the reason you are so crude and crass it to garnish some attention. It gives you a sense of empowerment.
Robert Armstrong
11:10 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
Everybody knows me Bueller. You need to spend a day or two outside of Dumbdalk.
Jim21236
11:21 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
The reality of this whole situation is that the county pension system continues to weaken. The county cannot afford to pay large pensions - they need to be capped at the very least or overhauled.
One police major is retiring with a $158,000 a year pension plus health benefits - in the local private sector NO ONE is walking away with that kind of retirement income. He is probably a nice guy, but I'll bet his pension is one of a few hundred in the $90,000 + range. If that were true and Baltimore County is paying 200 retirees $90,000 a year = $18 million dollars a year for 200 retirees!!! Many collecting another salary from the state or another municipality. If the average property tax is $3,500 - that's 5,100 properties just to pay those benefits. Then there are probably the 2,000 "Average Joe" retirees collecting another $40-$50 million.
Government pensions are another area where the higher echelon employees get lavish benefits and it hurts the system for the rank and file employees / retirees.
There will come a point where current police, fire and correctional employees are furloughed regularly just so the county can pay its obligations to retirees.
Buzz Beeler
12:13 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Jim, you hit the nail right on the head. This is an eyeopener.
http://www.foxbaltimore.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wbff_vid_10877.shtml
Buzz Beeler
11:24 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
I there anyone who personally knows Mr. Armstrong please step forward? Personal information is not required just a character witness.
As usual, rather than provide or answer any reasonable question, since you always make it an issue. you silence is deafening.
As I said Robert, I actually feel bad because I think we all seek the same things in life. I just wish you would grow up a little, people would respect you more.
Buzz Beeler
11:48 am on Monday, December 5, 2011
This is the story FOX 45 did and it's an eyeopener.
http://www.foxbaltimore.com/newsroom/top_stories/videos/wbff_vid_10877.shtml
I hope this puts to rest a lot of the questions on this issue.
Robert Armstrong
12:16 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
That's not an eye opener. Thats a yawn.
Now matter how hard you try and spin it nobody really cares that you were canned and now are harboring a case of the red ass towards Baltimore County.
Buzz Beeler
12:49 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
How can one be so inadequate in gray manner. Lets see, a major media story has been covered in this as a headline and your assessment is that it is a yawn. It's about the taxpayers and accountability of government.
I guess it would be a yawn to someone who never paid any taxes. Funny but no character witnesses as of yet. How long do you want me to wait. By the way this is Towson Patch, not Dundalk.
I think the issue is about $$ and millions of them. I'm long gone from this picture. I'm still waiting to here where you worked or if you ever did. Must have been some career.
I guess you would not understand anything about respect from your peers. It takes maturity to comprehend that issue.
This is what retirement can do to you. I don't advise it. A bored mind is the devils workshop or something.
Selling Christmas trees tonight at the Optimist Club on North Point Blvd. All the money goes to the programs. The Optimist are a non-profit organization.
Robert Armstrong
1:02 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
ROTFLMAO "Gray manner"???
You should be thankful that being a cop is one career that the semi literate can still handle.
Buck Harmon
1:47 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Closed hands are a lot like closed minds....nothing gets in or out. With an open hand or mind the possibilities are endless. Some of these blogs are tight fisted....limits have been defined and reached... how long do we run into the wall....?
Buzz Beeler
2:02 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Buck I have tried in so many ways but he continues to put everything down and never lets up. He focuses on me much of the time, I guess because my record is out there.
He will never respond to any question despite the fact the he berates others for their point of view. I just think that is has something to do with empowerment if he can find a flaw in anything either I or others do.
The sad part he really get nasty with the slurs and derogatorily comments. When you get some time go through some of his comments and read what he has written.
At one point he felt that euthanasia was the right way to go. I gave up and for me it's just something to do at the moment.
Buck Harmon
2:19 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
The real beauty of this media is that we all have an equal opportunity to have some input.... it's the output that might come as a result~ that can begin to make a difference.
The folks that follow these blogs have probably formed opinions regarding the various communicating techniques used as well.....seek the good... don't sweat the small stuff.....you can't change that.
Buzz Beeler
2:50 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Buck you are ex actually correct. I have been chastised on numerous occasions for engaging in this duel, but actually it gives me something to do. Your right about the "... you can't change that." At this point I don't think that is part of the agenda.
I think it's more about conflict and car crashes. Whenever there is a crash on the interstate both lanes slow down to see the wreck, which in this case is partly my fault.
I think there might be some that tune in to see this train wreck. What the heck, it keeps my mind occupied and at my age that is a good thing.
Buck Harmon
3:02 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Having read many of the posts submitted... I must say that all who make the effort have positive outcome in the end game.... sometimes the end game is just a little further off..
Keep up the good.....
Robert Armstrong
3:07 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
The problem is Bueller makes up bunches of cockamamie tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. Somebody reading his posts may not know his background and actually believe some this disinformation.
I thought it was funny back in the day when he would threaten to complain to the Attorney General's office every time someone disagreed with him. He might be pushing 70 but he has the maturity level of a 4 year old.
Buzz Beeler
3:36 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Buck, see what I mean. This what I have to deal with.
I'm 63, not 70, the Drop is real money and news, just like the "Fast and Furious" and then the green energy scandals. Find my quote of complaining to the attorney general's office, I would interested in what I said?
As of now, which has been several hours, not one person has come forward on your behalf. We still don't know if you ever paid a penny in taxes or ever worked.
For me this is a mental exercise. Even at 63 you wanna stay sharp. Actually Robert is my biggest fan. Another hit on the view-meter. Don't stop now, but you'll have to. I'll be selling trees tonight. I know you'll be bored but you have to make due.
Buzz Beeler
3:52 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Buck, I try and be fair.
http://dundalk.patch.com/blog_posts/lt-governor-anthony-brown-honored-at-hard-yacht-cafe
Robert Armstrong
5:33 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Who are you kidding Bunker? You have tried to blame Kamanentz , Olszewski and /or Homan for every thing bad thats happened this entire past year up to an including the Earthquake, the Orioles losing season and the Kardashian split.
Now ratchet down your tinfoil hat a little tighter.
Buzz Beeler
10:06 pm on Monday, December 5, 2011
Geez, looking back over some of my stuff is embarrassing. I'll blame it on my age.
Bart
8:19 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
A bit of introspection is good for the soul.
Buzz Beeler
12:24 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
I wish to apologize for my indiscretions and lapses of judgement.
Now to the news of today. It seems there is a move underfoot to quickly replace those members of the police command staff with new promotions.
Here is where it gets like a "Catch 22." The Drop was designed to keep members with senior leadership abilities. So the question is why are they forcing these senior leaders out with $$ and replacing them with promotions who will also be able to receive the Drop.
So at some time in the future we will all go through this again. This makes absolutely no sense. All of the promotions will come from members of the agency who came on prior to 2007 which will allow them to take the Drop.
Bart
8:19 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
......but here you go again!
Buck Harmon
9:03 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
I love it !!
Buzz Beeler
9:28 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Bart, I made a lot of friends with those guys I spent a lifetime with. The moral is bad and I get a lot of calls. Cops are like the rest of us when they get ticked they will air their concerns.
The problem is politics. Politics and police work don't mix very well. The chief becomes a pawn in he game. When I ran for office and my retirement badge became an issue, you don't think the chief got a phone call.
Think about the logic of it all. You lose a large portion of your command staff in one fell swoop what is the logical step that has to be taken. Under the command structure those positions must be filled.
Now the next logical issues who is eligible to fill those slots? You got it, supervisors that came on the job prior to 2007 which makes them eligible for the Drop.
The best time would be do it now and get over with it. The issue is already out there and if they get it out of the way the public will move on to the next issue. By the time the new command staff -- along with all others entitled -- comes to collect there will probably be a new county executive due to the lapse in time if for no other reason.
Bart
10:11 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Then what do YOU propose be done? These deals were made decades ago. As I said before, the employees kept up their end of the contract, now the employer must keep up their end. Do away with the DROP? Can that be done?
I don't pretend to know all the fine details, but I don't think anything gets done by throwing bombs from the sidelines.
And, oh by the way, I supported Bartenfelder, but can't fault Kamenetz too much for the problems he inherited from Jim Smith. Things are what they are.
Buck Harmon
10:17 am on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Keep in mind... the fact that influence can corrupt progress in these arena's...
Buzz Beeler
12:45 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Buck, most of the promotions at the command staff are based on politics. Once they established a list which has a different criteria that the lower ranks the choices are made on the old -- who's in your corner.
The command staff relies on what the call the oral test and not a standard exam.
I actually took advantage of this system when after 20 years of road work it was time for a change. I had become close to the captain and his family when I taught them the game of golf. Back then it was the game of choice.
I have seen them jump others on the list many times. It's the chief's prerogative on who he picks.
Bart, they did stop it and it applies to anyone who comes on after 2007. Go back and look the the FOX and Sears article. This pension issue is a hot bottom across he country. The liabilities are ones the county cannot afford in the long run.
You are right a deal is a deal but paying for it is another matter.
Lets all go over and comment on Sears article on Councilman Marks great idea of proposing term limits on the council members. I have always said Marks is a man of reason who could go far. See you over there.
Bart
12:58 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
I agree about Marks. He's the best I've seen for a very long time.
I'm not a big proponent of term limits, as I think the voters set their own limits - they vote out anybody they don't want. But I know it's never as simple as that.
It's one of the things he campaigned on, and, as usual, he's keeping his promises.
Tim
2:13 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Bart: We all know the gen pop are sheep. Expecting them to take real responsibility for who they vote for is a pipe dream.
Term limits are something I strongly support. Reasonable but consistent turnover prevents fat cats from getting too fat.
Bart
2:31 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Tim, I really can't disagree with you. Statistically, people don't like congress, but their own guy is just great.
Buzz Beeler
3:23 pm on Tuesday, December 6, 2011
Bart you hit the nail on the head. It happens all the time.
Momofmany
4:09 pm on Tuesday, December 27, 2011
It's real simple, these folks put their lives on the line everyday. When they finally retire they receive a pension and maybe a drop which they have both earned and funded. They then take their physically compromised bodies and continue to take many medications and get what they can get fixed and attempt to live a few prosperous years. Is that asking too much! (Check the mortality stats for these retirees?) Well apparently all of the Valley executives out there have an issue? But who ever complained about their bonuses at our expense and foreclosures and other issues that they have created? Let's worry more about the private sector abuses that in many cases have created our economic downturn in the county and not the public servants who enter public service as youths and leave as "broken" hardenned seniors!!